redundancy notice ?

hi all, new to this forum, and need some advice.
does anybody know where i can find case histories, to use in a tribunal hearing ? myself & 4 others are taking our ex employers to tribunal after redundancy. we believe we were entitled to payment in lieu of notice on 2 counts.

1, there were 10 of us employed & given our notice to finish on 31st aug 2009. a few weeks before this our employer sent a letter saying they needed 5 staff to stay for a period of 6-8 weeks. i was 1 of the 5 chosen. on tues 6th oct they contacted us by phone to tell us not to come in any more & they will pay us until monday 12th. less than 1 week. i have been told since that they should have either told us that we were redundant on 31th aug & placed on temp contract, or given us a definite date to finish & proper notice given again. we were all entitled to 11 weeks.

2, when we started the contract in 1998, there were 25 of us. 3 years in & they finished 5 staff, paying them redundancy & payment in lieu of notice. in 2008 staffing levels were again reduced to 10. of the 10 that finished, those entitled, were again given redundancy pay & payment in lieu of notice. we believe this would be classed as custom & practice.

does anybody know of any precedence that could be quoted to support our case, or anywhere i can find case histories that might be helpful to our cause ?

thanks in advance..steve..

sorry but i have posted this in the employment room as well by mistake, can the mods remove the other please !!

Payment in lieu of notice as in you don't think you should have been made to work your notice period? To be honest I don't think two incidents of redundancy in the last 12 years where people weren't asked to work their notice period (if I've understood you correctly) would be nearly enough to claim that you had a contractual entitlement established through custom and practice not to have to work your notice period in the event of redundancy.

In terms of your first point, I can't see any problem delaying termination date as long as it's done properly. If your employer wanted to delay termination date for some employees I don't think it would be necessary to give notice again, just to notify those employees that their termination date would be moved back a bit, effectively giving them more notice of redundancy than their colleagues. A letter specifying that would be necessary and if anyone wasn't happy staying longer they should have been able to say so. You say you were given a few weeks notice of the delayed termination date, so it's not as if it was sprung on you just before you were due to leave. You were also told 6-8 weeks which sounds like about the length of time it actually was? Ideally you should have been given a definite date to start with, but it doesn't sound as though they had one, and if/when it became clear exactly how long it would be they should have told you, which they did.

As long as anyone involved had the opportunity to decline delaying their termination date and they kept you as informed as possible, I really can't see much of a case for anything.

That's my view, and I know you didn't ask for opinions on your case but I thought I'd throw it in anyway!

Do you not have legal representation at all? A solicitor or trade union or other advisor would know how best to frame your case in terms of evidence or examples of previous cases.

Sorry if my response isn't what you wanted to hear.

sorry forgot to mention, that there is one other case, of a member of staff being caught in an impromptu action ie; urinating on site. although the case was not proven, the client wouldn't allow him back on site. he was paid 11 weeks redundancy & 15 weeks pilon. 4 weeks more than he would have been entitled to, had he remained in employment.

we dont have anybody representing us, we are representing ourselves. i did speak to a solicitor who said she would take the case on, but when i rang back to clarify things she was on holiday & one of the senior staff said they wouldn't take the case on, "as there wasn't enough money in it"

as for the unions i pulled out of it in the past, as i dont believe i was getting value for money. this was justified when i was selected to go in the 2008 reduction by way of falsified matrix scoring along with 1 other. i appealled & won my case. he went through the union & he didnt. we were both in similar circumstances.

anyway too late to get representation now as we are on stage on friday, with all the evidence we have. i was just trying to find out if there was any past precedence that we could refer to. i will carry on looking until then. i think we have enough to convince the tribunal we are entitled to the pilon.

..steve..

there is another question i have about the tribunal procedure is, will i be able to bring up past incidents to show the way the company is run ?
the fact they made up the matrix scoring on a previous occasion to put me on the redundancy list in 2008.
they gave me an interview for a supervisors job that i didnt apply for (even though they had already stated that a cv must be received before anyone will be considered) and then used the information gained in that interview to produce the matrix. (one of the criteria was job knowledge, the only questions i was asked in the interview was about H&S, in the words of the interviewer "i cant ask you questions about your job, as i dont know anything about it")
i have a catalogue of past indescrepencies within the company to write a book. will i be able to use these, as a reference to the companies incompetence ?
..steve..

I think the individual case you mentioned where a client didn't want the person on site would be an exceptional circumstance really, rather than evidence of a regular custom.

Case law for employment tribunals isn't generally available, although you can get information about cases heard in the Employment Appeals Tribunal British and Irish Legal Information Institute. Difficult finding what you need though, in terms of a case with very similar issues going the way you want it. I'd focus on principles rather than previous cases if I were you.

An employment tribunal is to hear a specific claim, not a history of general incompetence. Nothing that has happened previously (other than anything you feel demonstrates something becoming contractual through custom and practice) has any bearing on the merits of your claim. The tribunal isn't more likely to uphold your claim if you can illustrate that the company is badly run, and if your claim is upheld, previous incidents of incompetence will make no difference to the compensation awarded.

I would strongly advise you (or anyone bringing a tribunal claim) to keep strictly to facts and evidence illustrating the specific point you are making. If you raise anything that isn't directly relevant you run the risk of undermining any good case you may have by giving the impression you just want to sling as much mud as possible in the hope some of it might stick. All the mud then detracts from whatever good points you may have.

hi again, sorry about this but i am a bit unprepared. i have had an email from their solicitors saying, i should have sent them details about evidence.
"we shall be drawing to the attention of the Tribunal the fact that you have not sent us any documents" is this correct ?
i have until now understood that it would be an informal hearing & while not expecting to be exchaging pleasantries, didn't expect it to be as hostile as they are now presenting themselves.
they are now saying that they have sent a 201 page document today & expect mine by return.
have they left it late by doing all of this at such a late stage, or is this normal practice.
they have also sent me 2 witness statements, by email. both of which contain passages that were expecting us to listen to hearsay from the clients staff.
is it too late to ask for a postponement to get legal advice & representation ?
another sentence from them is "unless the claim is withdrawn as it is without merit we are instructed to go for costs against you".
whilst i know this is a possibility, is it a probability?

Each party in a tribunal is expected to be given reasonable notice of any witness statements or other evidence that the other party plans to use. If you don't let your employer have evidence prior to the hearing they will say at the hearing that they have not had an opportunity to consider the evidence and respond to it. The hearing will probably then be adjourned and you risk incurring the costs of a new hearing.

I don't know when your hearing is scheduled for, but it's not a case of your employer giving late notice of their requirement for your evidence, you are expected to know that really. Whether they are submitting their evidence late depends on when the case is to be heard. Normally the employer would submit their evidence afterwards anyway, so they can respond to points you are making.

You can certainly ask for a postponement, yes. It will be up to the judge whether to grant it or not. I would imagine you've read the guidance on the Employment Tribunal website already but it tells you about things like requesting postponements. Employment Tribunal > Forms & Guidance.

It is possible for a tribunal to award costs against you. In most cases each party pays their own costs, but if a tribunal felt your case was so weak you were not justified in bringing it, you may be required to cover your employers costs. Without enough information about your case to form an opinion as to how strong it is, it's impossible to say whether this is likely or not.

thanks for the reply, i have sent them a letter explaining the reasons & points we are taking this case to tribunal, but that was before we decided to go to tribunal. will that count ?
they have sent me witness statements & one of the statements is from a manager. will i be able to question him about indiscrepencies that have arisen with him in the past. the incident mentioned in my earlier post about him interviewing me for a job i didnt apply for, with an ulterior motive. i know you said it would detract from our claim, but i would like to expose him in a bad light. & will i need to tell his solicitor i will be questioning him & on which points ?

Either at the same time as you submitted your ET1 or after that you need to at some point ensure you have provided details of any evidence you intent to rely on. If you haven't done that yet you need to. If you are not submitting any evidence and have provided full details of your claim with your ET1 that's fine and you can notify your employer's solicitor accordingly.

Was the interview thing you mention about this redundancy situation? If so, then if you feel that made the selection criteria unfair you could appeal your redundancy on that basis, or claim unfair dismissal on that basis. It doesn't sound as though you are claiming the redundancy selection process was unfair though, just the pay situation.

If the interview wasn't anything to do with this situation you can ask if you like but I would expect the manager in question and the solicitor involved to refuse to answer unless you can explain how it is relevant to their actions at this point. There's no point trying to question people about stuff you disagreed with in the past, it just makes you look as though you don't have enough actual relevant evidence so are scraping for anything and everything you can think of.

You do seem underprepared in terms of your case, what will happen at the tribunal and process in between, so I think your first step is to request a postponement, get some proper advice about your case and take it from there.

hi again & thanks for your help. i have had a word with the rest of the claimants, and we have decided to go ahead tomorrow.
we feel a lot better now as we have just received a witness statement from a former employee (one of the 5 that left in august) it is very relevent to our case.
btw, we have received 3 offers from them from £250 the last being £1000.
i will let you know how we get on.
..steve..